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Rank: Administration  Joined: 6/29/2007 Posts: 3,537 Points: 6,037
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Let's get a discussion started on one of the most unique (and profound) insights revealed in YY. This was taken from: Book I : Genesis, Why Are We Here? Chapter 0, Re'shith, Beginning. The complete chapter can be found here: http://yadayahweh.com/Yada_Yahweh_Genesis.YHWH To quote: Quote:Consider this example: a score of verses say that some souls, upon death, will experience eternal life in the company of God. Half that number say that some souls will end up in the abyss, where they will experience perpetual anguish. Yet hundreds reveal that most souls will simply cease to exist. That is to say, when they die they will be destroyed. How can this be? Rabbis, priests, and imams all teach that there are only two eternal destinations, heaven and hell. Yet eternal anguish is a completely different result than destruction and death. Therefore, for Scripture to be trustworthy (and for God to be lovable), there must be three options - eternal life, eternal anguish, and having one's soul dissipated. This is one of many profound insights that you will find in these pages and perhaps nowhere else. -Yada If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh You can download the free software here. Hope to see everyone on Paltalk! WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
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The idea that you have one of three options as to where your eternal destination truly is brings about the best feeling ~ relief. I say this because I have always been troubled by the idea that my unsaved friends and family were all going to hell. I just could not understand how a "loving god" could send/punish them in such a way. I remember reading that and at first was in shock, and then just a sense of relief as Yahweh came over me I knew my friends and family were not going to be tormented. I was more in love with Yahweh that day and today than ever before. Even now thinking about it I just rest knowing that Yahweh loves me, and I rest in that.
I wish that all of my friends and family will join me in the house of Yahweh, but I know that with out a relationship there is no hope. You don’t know Yahweh; well hopefully you lived your life to the fullest!
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,495 Points: 4,249 Location: England
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Tiffany wrote:The idea that you have one of three options as to where your eternal destination truly is brings about the best feeling ~ relief. I say this because I have always been troubled by the idea that my unsaved friends and family were all going to hell. I just could not understand how a "loving god" could send/punish them in such a way. I remember reading that and at first was in shock, and then just a sense of relief as Yahweh came over me I knew my friends and family were not going to be tormented. I was more in love with Yahweh that day and today than ever before. Even now thinking about it I just rest knowing that Yahweh loves me, and I rest in that.
I wish that all of my friends and family will join me in the house of Yahweh, but I know that with out a relationship there is no hope. You don’t know Yahweh; well hopefully you lived your life to the fullest!
Completly agree - it was a relief for me too... and it makes much more sense when relating to Yahuweh... Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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I too found this troubling before but now see the consistancy with Yahuweh's revealed character and Scripture. I have shared the three-doors with unbelievers who charge Yahuweh with being unloving and monsterous on the basis of the two doors assumption and have been surprised at the result. Most seem unable to respond execpt to deny that is what Scripture indeed teaches. Yet some still think an all powerful, all loving heavenly Father would not be so cruel as to condemn anyone to either a place of eternal anguish or non-existance.
As I mentioned in my omnipotence question, it does seem like there are certain aspects to Yah's design that are either limited by His power or (more likely IMO) His character or both that necessitate the three doors.
I understand door #1 for those who seek and revere and are in fellowship with Yah and door #2 for those indifferent ceasing to exist upon judgement, as there is no attachment of nephish (soul) through neshamah (conscience) to an eternal ruach (Spirit).
Where I'm less clear is on the final door. Those who attach their souls to a spirit in oppostion to Yah. I realize that included in this number may be religious, political, and other persons in authority who teach doctrines that turn people from Yah who otherwise may well have choosen to seek and find relationship with Yah.
I guess I most clearly see figures like anti-Messiyah who knowingly and consciously join a spirit in opposition to Yah for some precieved benefit. To a lesser extent I can also see where devoute Pagans who dedicate themselves to eternal spiritual entities they revere as gods/goddesses in substitution for a relationship with Yah, even while dismissing the literal existance of Satan would share the eternal existence of such a ruach even if not recognizing such entities as demons. Does this mean that say atheistic Communist dictators who proclaim no spirits are indeed unknowingly attaching themselves to one in order to qualify for door #3?
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It took me a while to "warm up" to the three-doors doctrine, not because it isn't "like" Yahweh to arrange something like this, but because in fifty years of attending church, I'd never even heard of it---only heaven and hell. The "annihilation" theory was (as far as I could tell) proposed only by those who were convinced there was no God, and thus no God to answer to. The other roadblock to my understanding was the English translations of the Word. They're universally fuzzy on the subject, seemingly dividing it into "good stuff" and "bad stuff."
So I didn't swallow it whole, just 'cause I like and respect Craig. Rather, I did what believers are supposed to do: I went back and examined the Scriptures more closely. Once there, I was blown away with how clear everything became. Looking up the words used to describe what happens after this life in the original languages convinced me that this doctrine that seemed so logical, merciful, and just, was indeed what Yahweh had been telling us all along. How could we have missed it? (Oh yeah: religion obfucated the truth.)
With my fuzzy thinking clarified, I had to go back into my first draft of Future History (this was several years ago now) and revise it according to what I now knew to be true, and I wrote a chapter summarizing what I'd found (independent of Craig's stuff) called "The Three Doors." And as I poked around, something kept presenting itself---a definition of the denizens of Door Number Three that really surprised me. It's not merely those who fail to form a relationship with Yahweh; it's not the mistaken or the apathetic; it's not those who follow false gods or no gods at all; it's not even those (necessarily) who are open enemies of Yahweh. Time after time, the only people said to have a destiny of eternal torment in hell are those who purposely try to keep other people from forming a relationship with Yahweh. Why do they do this? Because their spiritual father, Satan, does this. That's all he does.
The really scary part seems to be that at the Tribulation winds to a close, there will be no one left on earth who isn't destined for either Door Number One or Door Number Three. The fence-sitters, the victims, and the formerly apathetic will all apparently have chosen sides before the Day of Atonement, 2033.
kp
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kp said..." those who purposely try to keep other people from forming a relationship with Yahweh"
This they do as a clear and knowing choice!! Telling people the truth about Yahweh and showing them in black and white and they still reject it and go their merry way and keep teaching and preaching lies fall in this pit!! I think we are going to feel a burden for people whether we tell them the truth or keep it to ourselves because we fear what their reaction is going to be so we might as well feel the burden for the right reason than the wrong. I know kp is talking about pastors and teachers here but I think it also applies to us that know the truth and keep it to ourselves out of fear of rejection. Frankly I would rather go down fighting for those I know and love then give in to fear.
Jeannie
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I've read both the first chapter where the quote came from in the orignal post and the Thanatos (separation) chapter. I have to STRONGLY disagree with the concept of 3 doors. The author has in NO WAY proven the soul of someone can just dissappear if he chooses neither God nor Satan. All of the examples given (and there are very few, yet he claims there are hundreds) do not say anything like this--it is solely his stretching his interpretation of the verse that allows him to believe in this theory. I looked at the definitions he gives for all the words/verses, and none of them really say what he is saying. I suggest you reread the sections and see if it blatently says there are 3 ways--you won't find it without "reading" more into the verses.
This is a very dangerous theory that can "comfort" people into NOT choosing God. They can just say, "I'd rather dissapper than go to hell or choose to live for God (and seemingly live a "boring" life)." In all my readings of the Bible, it has always been clear that there are only TWO roads - one narrow (choosing Jesus) and one wide (leading to death and destruction)--remember? So where does it say explicitly that there is a third road?? Why didn't Jesus teach on this and make it clear--instead, He was pretty clear about choosing Him or, by default, choosing Satan.
There is no where where it is described that those cast into the lake of fire are "poof" just gone and some remain--again, that is a very weakly supported view of the author with no scriptual basis. He quoted a verse or two, but LOOK at the verse--it doesn't say that--the author does.
If you can prove me wrong, PLEASE do so--with concrete, easily understood scripture so that I can see which verses everyone is using to prove this theory and read them for myself. Who knows, you might change my mind and I will let you know if you do so--but I doubt that the scriptures CLEARLY and bluntly show a third door option.
I AM NOT against the author or here to cause trouble--I like this site and learn a lot from it. I am against this particularly dangerous theory though.
In Christ,
William
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William (welcome to the forum, by the way), I was once where you were. That's all I had been taught all my life, the good ol' KJV seemed to support it (shoot, all the English translations do), and as long as I didn't think to hard about the character of God, it seemed to make sense. When Craig first came up with this, I thought he'd gone round the bend. But we're called to be Bereans, not Baptists---that is, we're encouraged to check doctrine against Scripture, not the opinions of men. (No offense to the Baptists---we agree on most things.) And I found that when I looked the salient words up in the original Hebrew and Greek, a whole different picture emerged, one that not only allowed "three doors," but demanded it. Problem is, Yahweh doesn't make a big deal out of differentiating these three eternal contingencies---He just describes them. "Heaven" we get, because it's a good thing and we all (in our own way) want to go there. The other two possibilities are, compared with heaven, both really bad. So we don't tend to pick up on the distinction between them. But in the original languages, it's there, and it's crystal clear.
I realize that Yada Yahweh can be a tough read in places. But I can assure you, its author isn't making this stuff up; his research is thorough and straighforward, even if he makes a point of challenging everything. Perhaps I can persuade you to check another source. In my book on prophecy, Future History (a free site to which you can click directly from YY), I covered the subject independently of what Craig had written. Before you close your mind on the subject, please review the textual evidence presented in FH chapter 29: "the Three Doors." I find the evidence overwhelming. And by the way, what I discovered about the lake of fire is particularly fascinating in regards to this issue.
Please, my friend, take the time to check it out. It can give you a whole new perspective on the mercy and justice of Yahweh.
kp
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I'm sorry, KP, but I patiently read the chapter you wrote in Future History and I still stand by my belief that there is either Heaven or Hell and no just "disappearance". I don't mean to strike out against your writing, but whenever you quoted verses and gave a word's meaning in Greek or Hebrew, I felt that in no way did it read that there was a third choice--not once--in fact I think that you really had to "reach" to get that in the translation. A lot of times in the chapter, because something was "missing" or "unexplained" to you, you simply inserted your belief and stated it as fact. I could cite each and every example, but instead I invite everyone to re-read the chapter and decide for themselves--does it EXPLICITLY say that there is a third alternative or do you have to reach that conclusion because it "makes sense" with what we know (or think we know) about God? In giving the parables, Jesus never mentioned a third alternative--and he gave several parables about how TWO examples of people (righteous and evil) would be seperated and dealt with. In fact, He even explained explicitly to His disciples what the parables meant because He did not want them to be confused--and a "third" alternative is something HUGE--something He surely would have explained and made clear to His disciples.
How could a "loving" God give us only two choices? I don't know and won't know until I reach Heaven and become knowledgable in all things. But throughout the Bible, two choices are made VERY clear--and a third choice being confusing?--that's just doesn't makes sense and doesn't flow with how the rest of the Bible was written and taught. The Bible is there to lead us to Christ and enlighten us about God and how He wants us to live our lives. The Bible is not meant to be confusing or secretive in that we have to figure things out (like a third eternal destiny).
You claim that the English translations are vague and wrong--but then you give the Greek/Hebrew translations and the English version jives perfectly--I'm not confused about it and it doesn't seem vague at all. Additionally, the translations were done by extremely well-versed scholars in the Greek and Hebrew languages. So why are they wrong in their translations--and apparently consistely so since they are all translated in an almost identical manner--and someone else be right? The translations were not just written by one man, but by a committee of scholars and had to pass very stringent review so that they were as close to the orginal manuscripts as possible. The Bible is God's word to us and He would not let an entire set of language translations be "wrong" because His followers would be misled--and that is not the character of God.
I still feel this 3 Door teaching is very dangerous and misleading. I hope there are others that will speak up and give their opinions one way or the other.
We may not agree on this issue, my brother, but we do agree that belief in and acceptance of Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to Heaven and THAT is what is most important! God bless and I will see you in Heaven!
William
Forgot-->God IS loving. The Bible says that He does not want anyone to perish but for all to have eternal life with Him. God does not "send" us to hell--we send ourselves by not believing in His Son, Jesus Christ. God is not to blame--we are!! Hell was not built for us, but because we decide not to follow Jesus, we automatically choose hell as our eternal destination. (And I'm using the term hell here generally, I know the difference between lake of fire, hell, etc).
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William,
I read FH as well and it may not be overwhelming, but there's certainly a strong case that can be made based on KP's analysis. I was actually first drawn to yadayahweh because of this idea of the 3rd door in CW's writing. It was a conclusion I came to independently myself from what I feel was discerned through a closer walk with Yahweh. Clearly if it cannot be backed up scripturally then we have a problem, but the Scriptures have never been crystal clear on this issue from my reading.
I think you also need to add to the proof the general perception today, amongst non-believers, who are decent people that when they die, that's it. It's totally plausible, many(if not a majority) of people belive it, and they are fine with it, especially if they have lived full lives.
You can always fall back on Genesis 3:19 "...For dust you are, and to dust you return."
I personally don't think this is dangerous doctrine. I think it would re-energize Christianity. We have so many "believers" who figure they're not going to Hell even though they may be drive by Christians. They do nothing to set themselves apart from the world. And what's the pastor going to do, tell them they're going into the abyss becasue they only pay lip service to Yahweh? He does that, and you can basically shut down every church in America. If these Christians were given a 3rd way, I think it would bring out a tremendous wave of repentence becasue it is so plausible, where the Heaven and Hell choice seems forced and paints Yahweh in an arbitrary light.
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William wrote:I AM NOT against the author or here to cause trouble--I like this site and learn a lot from it. I am against this particularly dangerous theory though.
Hi William, Welcome to the forum. Bringing up questions is always healthy and only when PPL are hesitant to answer them should you wonder. I would like to present a different perspective as far as you thinking this is a "dangerous theory". I have to disagree because I experienced it first hand. The church was repulsive to me growing up for this very reason and I suspect that many other PPL consider Church, and thus God (errantly) ridiculous for this exact reason. How on Earth can someone stand up on a pulpit and proclaim that a loving God says that you either love Him or you will burn in Hell forever? Next time you approach a woman, say, "you either love me or I will set your hair on fire", and guess how that'll work out for ya LOL? A "thinker" will NEVER be attracted to such drivel, because it just doesn't make sense. How many souls are lost to this alone? Talk about dangerous? Whew! Even if you were right though, and in the end, there are only 2 destinations, what effect will this have on me, or any other family member for that matter? I simply don't see the danger of being wrong about 3 but there is definately a danger of being wrong about 2. I suppose the best place to start would be to ask you if you think there are 3 destinations or 2-regardless of what happens to the souls, we are only speaking about the number of destinations right now. How many? After this answer, if you don't mind, please explain the purpose of the white throne judgement. Thank you in advance.
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DD, you've brought up some incredibly important points on the subject. As far as being a "dangerous doctrine" is concerned, I'd like to offer the case of the webmaster who keeps this forum up and running. I've known him for eleven years now, an intelligent, honorable, and courageous man if ever there was one---and until a few years ago, an atheist! Why, you ask? Because he couldn't bring himself to honor a god who would say "Love me with your whole heart, soul, and mind or I'm going to torment you in hell for all eternity." Actually, I believe it was his cogent and logical objection to a god of this character that got Craig looking deeper into the subject in the first place, 'cause when you stop and think about it, it's a very odd thing for a loving God to say. On the basis of his research, Craig came up with what we're calling the "Three doors" theory, and on the basis of his findings, our beloved webmaster became a devoted child of Yahweh. He's still an intelligent, honorable, and courageous man, but now he's indwelled with Yahweh's Spirit, and that makes him a truly remarkable individual.
William, it disturbs me that you can't see the fundamental dichotomy between how "doors two and three" are described in scripture. (I mean, I find 'em obvious, now that I know what to look for.) Let's revisit a few blatant examples, to try to get a handle on this: “You have lovingly delivered my soul from the pit of corruption, for You have cast all my sins behind Your back.” (Isaiah 38:17) The Hebrew word translated “corruption” is beliy, which actually means nothingness—it is the word for negation, literally: “no, not, or without.” Isaiah is saying that by placing our sins out of His sight, Yahweh has saved our souls from becoming nothing, from dissipating into nonexistence. The "pit of nothingness," moreover, is incompatible with the concept of eternal, waking torment. Or how about this? "The dwelling place of the wicked will come to nothing.” (Job 8:22) It says (literally), “the home or habitation—the tent (which is often used as a euphemism for the body)—of the guilty—those declared to be in violation of a standard of law—will not be.” This last word is ’ayin, meaning “nothing, none, or naught,” from a root connoting “to be nothing or not to exist.” That's pretty clear, isn't it? Shoot, even the English translation got it right.
Compare that to “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-11) That can't be the same thing as the two verses quoted above. You can't be consigned to nothingness and be tormented day and night forever. These are mutually exclusive concepts.
kp
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Rank: Moderator  Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,784 Points: 3,832 Location: Texas
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Speaking as someone who spent most his life as an agnostic, atheism never made sense to me, this heaven/hell belif was the bigest stumbling block to me comeing to know Yahweh or even believeing his scripture. Not to get to off topic but I'd like to share my story for why the Three Doors theory is good and not dangerous. I began my journey when I heard Gerald Schroder on a talk show I listen to frequently(Dennis Prager) His argument for the scientific validity of the creation account was so intresting I rushed out and bought his books. After reading them I became completly conviced that the scriptual account of creation was inline with all of science. I still had many issues concerning belief, most, I would come to find out were not issues with scriptue, but rather mans errant theology. Among them were the heaven/hell idea. While I belived that Genisis was insprired as no man of that time could know what it contained. I still did not believe in the God of scripture because I could not believe a loving God would say "love me or burn" for lack of a better phrase. Not liking this predicament I began my research. Three years latter I had only a vague idea. Then I herd Craig Winn on the radio about Prophet of Doom. I then read the book, and well Islam is another story I won't go into the awakeing that POD gave me. I also saw the YY link and started reading that. While at this time I belived in a creator god and that that God had inspired atleast part of the "bible" through YY and subsequently my own resarch using word study I have come to Know Yahweh, threw YY and my studies verifing what YY says I found that all my objections to scripture where not scriptually based, but rather traditions added on by man later, i.e. heaven/hell only. So Thank You Craig and Ken for bringing this lost sould to Know my father Yahweh. So based on my own journy, and the many people I know that reject scripture for the same reason, I belive that the dangerous idea is not the 3 doors but rather the 2 doors. I also have had a "fun time" convincing my Christian friends of this, but have had some progress, my soon to be wife sees my point while not fully willing to concede it. Truely what one believes in this matter is not a big deal except, as I have told my Mother In-Law to be, that by teaching 2 doors we risk driving away otherwise good people who are aching to know Yahweh even if they don't know it. Thanks for listing to my ramblings and thanks for the plethora of info avilable on this site, and the great insight of the people in the fourm now that I know it is here I look forward to comunicating with all of you. May Yahweh bless you all. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Member  Joined: 9/5/2007 Posts: 641 Points: 1,227 Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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James, welcome to the forum.
I just presented the three doors to the pastor of the church I used to attend (as of Sunday). His response on that is in another topic. It certainhly wasn't favorable. I don't see how anyone can think that the three doors would turn people away from Yahuweh. Although, perhaps I could see how they might think it could turn people away from "God," depending on who that "God" is. . . The three doors are perfectly in line with scripture and it answers questions I know many of us have had.
Welcome, again, to the forum. We look forward to your contributions.
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Rank: Moderator Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,784 Points: 3,832 Location: Texas
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Thanks Icy I look forward to learning and contributing. I can see why a pastor would certainly have a problem with 3 doors, as most have made a living of using Hell to scare people into believing. Pastors tend to want you to join for the promise of heaven or out of fear of hell, Yahweh wants us to love him because that is what he created us for and hell is only the neccesarry option that must be their for justice and free will to exist. What I have the most trouble understanding is good people who don't seem to listen to reason, and on top of that condemn others for thier views, I have been told that I will go to hell for promoting the 3 doors theory. Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,495 Points: 4,249 Location: England
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yes a big welcome James :) good to see you - I hope you feel at home here... i know the rest of us do :) Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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Rank: Ekklesia
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3 doors is the most rational description I've ever read-how could God be just to inflict an eternity of torment for a lifetime's worth of sin? The 3 door model shows Yahweh is just and merciful.
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It's my experience that while the "three doors" theory sticks in the collective craw of people who were raised as "christians," because they've been hounded with sermons saying "Love God or get tortured for eternity" all their lives, it is precisely the opposite with atheists and agnostics. For them, the three doors theory is the first breath of sanity and mercy they've ever heard coming from the lips of believers. It's a pity that our English Bible translations do such a poor job of communicating the truths that are so obvious in the original languages, and a greater pity that people today have forgotten how to think, how to use the senses Yahweh gave them to come to rational conclusions based upon His revealed word. I freely admit that I doubted the theory until I looked up the words for myself. Now I'm a "convert," thoroughly convinced in my own mind. And a nagging but suppressed reservation that I had held concerning the character of Yahweh (that is, how He could punish people who had never even heard of His existence for not loving Him) has been resolved, lifting a huge weight off my shoulders.
kp
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Rank: Moderator Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 1,784 Points: 3,832 Location: Texas
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kp wrote:It's my experience that while the "three doors" theory sticks in the collective craw of people who were raised as "christians," because they've been hounded with sermons saying "Love God or get tortured for eternity" all their lives, it is precisely the opposite with atheists and agnostics. For them, the three doors theory is the first breath of sanity and mercy they've ever heard coming from the lips of believers.
And a nagging but suppressed reservation that I had held concerning the character of Yahweh (that is, how He could punish people who had never even heard of His existence for not loving Him) has been resolved, lifting a huge weight off my shoulders.
kp Amen KP Don't take my word for it, Look it up.
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Rank: Ekklesia  Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,191 Points: 3,394 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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Here's an article I found on the BBC News website concerning solitary confinement in a nuclear bunker, with the absence of light and sound. As the title sentence says : What happens if you are left alone in the dark in solitary confinement for days on end? The result is called sensory deprivation and the human mind struggles to cope with it. Click here, or copy and paste the following link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/...ws/magazine/7199769.stm
Gives a little perspective of what Door #3 might be like, except only a lot worse, not that we really want to know what it's like. I read somewhere, either by KP or CW, that the only dimension in Hell is Time.
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Shalom All, This is a very good thread! I like what I read as it does put everything on the table for anyone to see and consider. My take on what Scripture has revealed is largely influenced by what I had learnt last time. First, "The dead know not anything." What does this really mean? If you are dead do you know anything? Where are you if you are dead? Do you have eternal life as a human in the form of a spirit which leaves you when your physical body dies? If you think you do, then is it consistent with Scripture which says that eternal life is a gift? Second, "The dead shall rise..." If the dead are resurrected, into what bodies shall they be resurrected? Those who are called and answer know that "we shall be like Him" but what about the others? Will they be raised as spirit when they appear before Yahweh for judgement? Or mortal? Third, if Yahweh is to be seen as the epitome of love, would it be consistent that He consigns people to eternal damnation for not loving Him? Would it be just of Him to judge people in such a way depending how they live during their short time on earth? Fourth, would it not be consistent that He destroys what is unusable? Why sustain what is unnecessary? Fifth, for those who choose not to follow Him and knowingly force or refrain others from knowing Him, would it then be their choice of choosing eternal damnation rather than eternal life? Yahweh did not force them, only showed the consequences of choice. If incorrigible people are raised as mortals and see the fires of Gehenna would they not fear it? Like the rich man asking Lazarus for a sip of water, would they not fear being destroyed in such a manner, if that is indeed their fate? Sixth, is it possible that those who knew Him or about Him but not in the full and proper sense may have responded most positively if they had proper guidance and were not waylaid by spiritual hijackers? Would meeting Yahweh at the Judgement Day open their eyes and give them hope of a renewed life instead of fearful damnation? Would not a compassionate Yahweh offer to open their eyes and teach them Truth? Seventh, what would those resurrected in Spirit unto eternal life do during the Millineum if not governing and teaching? We know that we are to be rulers, but it really means that we have to guide those living as mortals. It is a great responsibility but also an incredible, joyous opportunity to bring more people into The Family! So is this not a sensible approach then, regarding the loving nature of Yahweh and the fate awaiting those who reject Him? Incredible as it sounds, even after 1,000 years of divine rule some will still choose damnation! That is what is revealed in Revelation 20:8 when the Adversary is let loose again after the 1,000 years are up. And who rises up with him to fight Yahweh? Gog and Magog! Again, those who think that they have a better god, just like those living here now! What happens after that? "Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone" where his gang went, and then everyone is raised and "judged according to their works" and whether their name was in the Book Of Life. But what is interesting to note is that eventually death and hades gets thrown into the lake of fire! (Rev. 20:14) Does this means that death and destruction is also stopped? Shall Yahweh not have anything else to burn or destroy? Shall a fire even be needed? And if there is no fire, where is eternal torment in fire and brimstone? Should we be concerned that we do not have the threat of eternal fire to convert people today? Of course not! We who are of the Family will be guiding those raised into a mortal life, whether during the 1,000 years or after. Can you think of anything better than to help teach your "unconverted" but resurrected parents and siblings the truth about Yahweh over a little time of their resurrected mortal life and then watch them transfigure before your very eyes, just as you did a thousand years earlier? Isn't this much, much, incredibly much better than hell fire? Truly, "eye has not seen" nor "ears have heard" the wonders that are in store for us! The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,495 Points: 4,249 Location: England
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Matthew wrote:Here's an article I found on the BBC News website concerning solitary confinement in a nuclear bunker, with the absence of light and sound. As the title sentence says : What happens if you are left alone in the dark in solitary confinement for days on end? The result is called sensory deprivation and the human mind struggles to cope with it. Click here, or copy and paste the following link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/...ws/magazine/7199769.stm
Gives a little perspective of what Door #3 might be like, except only a lot worse, not that we really want to know what it's like. I read somewhere, either by KP or CW, that the only dimension in Hell is Time. Me and Juski watched that programme - it was very insightful Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 1/28/2008 Posts: 41 Points: 102 Location: Idaho
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Shalom Ken. My name is Garrett and I am new to the forum. I have been reading Yada Yahweh, and I am up to the Matsah chapter in the Called Out section. I dig Craig. His pursuit of the truth is mind blowing. He has really done his homework, and so far I see no agenda (beit political, financial etc.) I emailed Craig with some preliminary questions and he was very gracious with his reply. He directed me to the forum with the expectation that I would have many more questions through this journey. I decided to wait and go through his book and yours (Future History) a couple of times and to write down all of my questions (assuming they don't get answered in the latter chapters). Like most, I have come out of the protestant church and over the last year or so would best describe my perspective as Messianic. I have already taken paleo (Ancient) Hebrew and am beginning the modern (Babylonian) Hebrew now. I, like many have come to see how most of our traditions and our celebrations are blatantly pagan. I have come to realize that Yahweh never abolished His Torah. His commandments, dietary laws, His Shabbat, and His Moedim are as important to Him today as when he gave them to Moshe. That said, Craig has exposed things that even the Messianic fellowship do not address. The reason I am posting is because I am a little confused about the 3 door theory. Like most, this is something I have never heard in church, and again is not something the Messianics are teaching. What I am learning from Craig’s research is that just because "the church" isn’t teaching it, doesn't matter much. But here is my concern: Luke 16:19-31 is the Parable that Yeshua told regarding Lazarus and the rich man. Clearly the rich man was experiencing torment in hell, and clearly he was consciously aware of his situation. No place in this parable does Messiah say that the rich man had chosen the enemy or was guilty of leading people away from God. So what do we do with this? Don't get me wrong. I like the theory of the 3rd door. It does seem to fit with the nature of God as I understand it. It also makes me feel better about those I love who won't seek Yahweh. But is it about how it makes us feel, or what His word says? Is it about what we understand? Didn't He say that our thoughts are not His thoughts? I guess my biggest fear is creating God in an image that suits me. Does that make sense? Like I said, I am a fan of Craig’s work, and I am sure there is a reasonable explanation. I just need help with this parable and perhaps specific direction. Where can I find a detailed explanation and scriptural support for 3 doors? B'shem Yeshua H'Mashiyach. Garrett- It is the glory of Elohim (God) to conceal a matter, but the honour of melekim (kings) to search it out.
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Rank: Advanced Member
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Hello Garrett and welcome to the forum! Your question regarding the rich man in hell is actually discussed at length in YadaYahweh - It's in The God Damn Religion - Krima Chapter. The Krima chapter also gives you some extra scriptural proof regarding the 3 doors as well, especially with regards to Matthew chapter 13. Again, welcome to the forums, and I hope you learn a lot from your reading of YY :)
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,495 Points: 4,249 Location: England
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Welcome Garrett! and what Swlachy said :) Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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Hi, Garrett, and welcome to the forum. I don't know if you've gotten that far in Future History yet (since it's laid out chronologically) but there's an entire chapter (29) on (and entitled) "The Three Doors." I discuss the rich man and Lazarus in the following chapter, "Heaven, Hell, and Eternity."
As a life-long "Church" goer, I was at first skeptical about the three doors theory---mostly because I'd never heard anybody present it or deal with it. We "Christians" tend to sweep under the rug or sidestep anything that doesn't quite make sense according to our tidy little theologies. We don't like to deal with "problems" in scripture, 'cause deep down, we're afraid God screwed up. I know, it's stupid. In 2001, Craig and I, quite inadvertently, stumbled upon an "impossible" passage (II Samuel 7:14 and thereabouts) and, risking all, decided to chase it down, come what may. When we got into what the Hebrew words really meant, it all made sense. And from that point on, we developed a penchant for dealing with problem doctrines head on. Craig figured this one out long before I did, though, and like I said, I was skeptical at first. That is, until I did the homework for myself. I not only discovered that CW was right, I also realized that I'd been scrupulously avoiding the subject for years, just like everybody else.
The problems that cloud the issues for us are two-fold. First, our English translations don't do a very good job communicating the nuances of the descriptive words: they all sound REALLY BAD or REALLY GOOD. We'll take the Hebrew word for "nothingness, ceasing to be" and render it "destruction." Close, but no cigar. The second systemic problem with the usual take on this doctrine is that we tend to take things out of context: Yes, there are whole populations who will be eternally punished (Door 3). For example: the goats of Matthew 25. But we read the passage in a vaccum, not realizing that Yahshua is describing the state of affairs that will exist as He assumes the throne at the beginning of His Millennnial reign. We don't realize He's speaking about a specific group of people, so we extrapolate what He said to cover anybody and everybody who isn't "saved" in any age, and lead ourselves into error. If we ignore the context, we'll likely mess up the doctrine. What is it they say? A text without context is pretext.
Bottom line, having researched it for myself, I now agree with my friend Craig on this subject. Both of us (or anybody on the forum, for that matter) would tell you, "Don't take our word for it---look it up for yourself." But fair warning: you'll have to have some Original Language tools to figure this one out. (Sounds like you're way ahead of me on that score.)
kp
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Rank: Ekklesia Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,191 Points: 3,394 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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bitnet wrote:Can you think of anything better than to help teach your "unconverted" but resurrected parents and siblings the truth about Yahweh over a little time of their resurrected mortal life and then watch them transfigure before your very eyes, just as you did a thousand years earlier? Bitnet, are you saying that the unconverted will get a second chance in their next lives, resurrected again? Will they be raised from infant, young in age, or the age they passed away? I am not trying to offend (as you know we speak in love), but isn't this bordering on the theory of purgatory, where people are already destined for heaven, it's just they aren't pure enough to enter at the moment so get a second chance to cleanse themselves? Throughout Scripture we are given hints to one life one chance, here are just three of them: Genesis 6:3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years."Deuteronomy 15:1-3 At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts. This is how it is to be done: Every creditor shall cancel the loan he has made to his fellow Israelite. He shall not require payment from his fellow Israelite or brother, because the LORD's time for canceling debts has been proclaimed. You may require payment from a foreigner, but you must cancel any debt your brother owes you.Luke 13:23-27 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'" However, I am curious because I do see your point, but from my understanding of Scripture once you pass away then your time is up. Otherwise I think Yahushua's message would have been different: "Repent for the Kingdom of Yahuweh is coming, choose now, or choose later if you did not have 'proper guidance' and were mislead by spiritual hijackers in your first life."You mention in your sixth point "Would meeting Yahweh at the Judgement Day open their eyes and give them hope of a renewed life instead of fearful damnation?" but this defeats the purpose of using one's freewill, choosing to love, instead of bowing down to the Almighty in fear. Secularism is on the increase, because they choose to believe the lie, they've taken the wide road which leads to destruction.
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Rank: Advanced Member Joined: 7/4/2007 Posts: 1,495 Points: 4,249 Location: England
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The thing that worries me for I think mostly the people claiming they are saved (Christians) is the Luke quote Matthew wrote:Luke 13:23-27 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'" This seems to imply that there will be those who believe they know Him, but He does not know them. Now I KNOW that there will be Christians who are not "saved" - but that verse really seems to point out that some might know Him, but obviously He does not know them. My problem I suppose is that I am operating on a "Yah knows the Heart" - But if what I am thinking is right, that's not certain enough for me. It kinda links to Jojo's post in the other thread, Zeitgeist, deception is rife, and destructive - no matter how much you know about something or even profess to love something... there is something missing... As I was speaking to Mike (J&M) tonight, Yahuweh's precepts are for us to relate to Him. If you walk with Yahuweh, whether it is before or after the Christian "New Covenant" there is salvation. Walking with Him involves getting into His precepts. I dunno, sorry if this is off topic but it just jumped out at me tonight. Thinking out loud. :) Signature Updated! Woo that was old...
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Rank: Advanced Member
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Posts: 1,120
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Hello All, Would meeting Yahweh at Judgement Day create fear? Especially if it is for the first time? What do you think!!? It will be the first time for many people to have ever known or heard of Him! Think of all those billions who never had the chance of knowing Him during their lives on earth... the young who died tragically included... or as Swalchy translates in Revelation 20:7, "...the great and powerful, the small and little." What about babies of believers and followers? How will they be resurrected? Needs some thinking, I'd say. The thing is, for us the reckoning is TODAY as we do know Him, but for them who do not know Him how can they be judged other than by their hearts and their works? For those who heard of Yahweh but rejected Him without wanting to know Him, then there may be much to fear, but for those kept in the dark by the evil ones, can we truly say that their ignorance condemned them? Most have not even had the chance to hear the real message of Word! We are most fortunate to have been called today, and by accepting His Sacrifice for us and by serving Him, we can be redeemed, not because of ourselves but because He wishes it to be so. We are called to serve Him in the future as priests and kings, humbly administering to man not of ourselves but in full authority of the Father. If we know of this today and turn away from this, then we shall have much to dread, perhaps just as much as those who willingly oppose Him during their lives. But for the others kept ignorant by circumstance, I'll leave that to Yahweh to decide, but it does look that He will present them an opportunity otherwise why resurrect them and separate them from the goats? Shalom Aleichem The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Rank: Ekklesia Joined: 10/3/2007 Posts: 1,191 Points: 3,394 Location: São Paulo, Brazil
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bitnet wrote:For those who heard of Yahweh but rejected Him without wanting to know Him, then there may be much to fear, but for those kept in the dark by the evil ones, can we truly say that their ignorance condemned them? Most have not even had the chance to hear the real message of Word! bitnet wrote:But for the others kept ignorant by circumstance, I'll leave that to Yahweh to decide, but it does look that He will present them an opportunity otherwise why resurrect them and separate them from the goats? I honestly ask myself the same questions, what about those who have received less knowledge, or as you said "kept in the dark"? Will Yahuweh have mercy on them? What about those not receiving knowledge of the Truth because of circumstance? Also, what actually happens with someone (supposedly heading for Door 2) when they die, from my understanding they simply fall asleep until the very end of the Millennium when they receive a brief judgment? But if they are on their way to non-existence will they even remember being judged? In situations like these I keep thinking of my own family, through me (though not the best of examples) they have someone within their midst walking with Yahuweh, will they be classified as being "kept in the dark" because they still did not choose to love Yahuweh? My brother for example, he knows my and my mother's walk yet still continues to enjoy the wide road that leads to destruction. There will be many who fall into this category, those who can't be bothered to turn to Yahuweh, confess their sins and lead a set-apart life. Circumstance I can understand, but with willful ignorance I cannot see people being resurrected again. And with Luke 13:23-27 if one keeps reading the passage it mentions those who are on the outside will be where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth." Also, this passage clearly says there is a time limit, once the door closes that's it, you can knock all you want, the door ain't opening. Is this passage referring to those then heading for Door 3, those who have chosen to willingly lead others astray, rather than the willfully ignorant heading for destruction instead?
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Rank: Advanced Member
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Shalom All, I had thought about this and also posted a longer thread on Rev. 20:10. Not espousing doctrine but trying to understand and determine the mercies and grace of Yahweh without conflicting His warnings is a tad more difficult for some of us. But truth be told, if people willfully walk away then they shall be expunged from the record, and if they led others astray from Yahweh and His Implementation of Redemption Yahushua then "better they tie a millstone to their necks and cast into the sea" than face His punishment for them. The reverence of Yahweh is the beginning of Wisdom.
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Rank: Administration Joined: 6/29/2007 Posts: 3,537 Points: 6,037
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Hello Everyone, Here is a reprint of the YY quote used to start the thread: Quote:Consider this example: a score of verses say that some souls, upon death, will experience eternal life in the company of God. Half that number say that some souls will end up in the abyss, where they will experience perpetual anguish. Yet hundreds reveal that most souls will simply cease to exist. That is to say, when they die they will be destroyed. How can this be? Rabbis, priests, and imams all teach that there are only two eternal destinations, heaven and hell. Yet eternal anguish is a completely different result than destruction and death. Therefore, for Scripture to be trustworthy (and for God to be lovable), there must be three options - eternal life, eternal anguish, and having one's soul dissipated. I was just wondering if anyone was aware of a list of these verses broken out by category (door #1, door #2, door #3(). I had a discussion about this the other day and thought that such a list would have come in pretty handy. Thanks. If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh You can download the free software here. Hope to see everyone on Paltalk! WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/5/2007 Posts: 641 Points: 1,227 Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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Take a scan of FH chapter 29, and maybe 30, as I think kp covers many of the verses there.
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Rank: Administration Joined: 6/29/2007 Posts: 3,537 Points: 6,037
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Thanks Icy - I might have just gone through that chapter recently...is that where kp talks about the "catch" being separated into the 3 different groups? What I was really curious about was the "scores" and "hundreds" of verses cited in the quote I posted. I'll take a look again through the chapters you mentioned - thanks. If you'd like to join the YY Study Group room on Paltalk - just click here. The lockword is: yadayahweh You can download the free software here. Hope to see everyone on Paltalk! WARNING: Do not give out personal information (name, address, etc.) to anyone on Paltalk - ever!
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/5/2007 Posts: 641 Points: 1,227 Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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It has been awhile since I read those chapters of FH, but I know they deal with the three doors. I guess there probably are not scores and hundreds of verses in those chapters, but there are some. Yeah, if Craig is going to mention so many, it would be nice to at least have them listed. You can probably find the key words and then use a concordence to look up all the verses with those words in it. Have you emailed Craig and asked him?
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That would make a great writing project, perhaps another appendix to FH. One thing's for sure: you couldn't do it without paying serious attention to the Hebrew and Greek lexicons. The English in our Bibles just doesn't cut it. (I almost made a freudian typo there: I first typed Bobles---read: Bobbles :-)
I feel like a blind dog in a meat market. So many delicious things to sniff at. So little time.
kp
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kp - I do not have a translation book for Greek or Hebrew...if you do, please look this verse up for me---
"For the wages of SIN is DEATH..." -- how is "death" defined?
"For ALL have SINNED..." everyone who ever lived long enough, except Jesus, has sinned and thus will experience DEATH (unless they are saved through the blood of the Lamb)
I'm trying to be fair and am reading FH chapter 29 carefully...just started rereading it. But to honest, I do not believe that any of the prophets of old, Jesus, or the apostles ever spoke about a third option...they always talked about either heaven or hell. IF there were a third door, it would have been PLAINLY stated in the inspired Word of God because He does not want to confuse us, He wants us to use the Bible to draw us to Him--thus it is in plain speech. A third door, if existant, would be a HUGE, HUGE topic of the Bible--and discussed well and thoroughly by MANY of the authors. It would not have been mentioned here and there in verses that MAY or MAY NOT be saying that (depending on whether the readers believe in YOUR translation vs. that of MANY highly educated Jewish and Christian scholars who are fluent in the original languages)--it would be plain as day for us--just like the plan of salvation is plain as day in the Bible.
As far as all of you saying that you can't believe a "loving" God would send anyone to hell--well, He loved me SO MUCH that He sent His only Son to die for me and save me from sin. THAT is a "loving" God!! If I do not choose to receive this gift of salvation, then God is not "sending" me to hell, I am CHOOSING to go there because I'd rather continue in my sin and reject God.
I'm not here to cause trouble...but to offer my differing opinion on this 3 door theology that I think actually twists scripture in order for the theory to come about. I feel (and this is MY opinion--every one has one) that this theory forces God to be what we want Him to be according to our humanly view of "justice" and "fairness". We cannot make God what we want Him to be--He is who He is and I tremble to think that I would have the audacity to tell Him how he should judge or how He should be "fair" and "loving" according to MY human standards vs. His eternal and holy standards. We do not know God completely--there ARE mysteries and unanswered questions only to be understood on the other side. Sure, I'd LOVE to be "comfortable" letting my loved ones die without knowing Christ, knowing that they'll just disappear and not burn in hell--but Moses never mentioned it, Abraham never mentioned it, David never mentioned it, Daniel never mentioned it, Isaiah never mentioned it, Ezekiel never mentioned it, Jesus never mentioned it, Paul never mentioned it, John never mentioned it...shall I go on??
P.S. Please, all of you writers, stop being offensive by labeling me and others as "christians" with the quotes. I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour. I believe that He died for my sins and was resurrected, conquering death and sin. I will see Him one day and fall at His feet, knowing not how to thank Him. I AM a Christian, not a "christian".
Also wanted to add this verse...
Revelations 20:15 "If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (NIV)
So you're either in the book of life as a saved person, or you're not...simple as that. What does the verse say about those who were NOT found in the book of life??? They are thrown into the lake of fire. Plain and simple. Two doors, not three. Can't quite get around that simplicity without a lot of mumbo jumbo.
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Rank: Advanced Member  Joined: 9/11/2007 Posts: 711 Points: -84 Location: Penna
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William, If you are looking for a versions of the scriptures in the original language and built in concordances of the Hebrew and Greek may I suggest to you esword. It's a great program for people just starting out on the original languages and it's free. You can download it at: http://www.e-sword.net/
You will find a full range of additional versions of the scriptures that you can also download for free. I hope it is useful to you. As for your question about Romans 6:23: Death is from the word thanatos. It means literally or figuratively...death. I say from because I am not sure if it is the word or a derivative. I am much better with Hebrew than I am Greek. Perhaps somebody else can help you more than I have been able to do. I hope that will help you my "christian" brother. Okay...Okay...I am sorry...just kidding around. I don't mean to mock your sincerity, but honestly it has been a rare occasion when I have ever seen any regular member on this forum with the intent to offend or hurt. We are not critical of the "church" as it exists beyond space time as a pure institution of YHWH. We are however critical of the temporal religious institution administrated by men for the purpose of ruling the masses. Those are two very different concepts and I hope you can understand the prevelent position on this forum in regards to the Kehilat, Ekklesia, congregation, church...whatever you choose to call it. I give you the Pope and Gene Robinson as short entries on a very long list of our grievances against man's christianity. I hope that you will not take that as a slap in the face of Christians as individuals. Shalom and Yah Bless YHWH's ordinances are true, and righteous altogether.
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Okay, this is a DIRECT QUOTE from your book FH Chapter 29...as I continue to read it, I will post with more of my thoughts versus yours. Again, not here to cause trouble...just to offer a different point of view so that the forum readers can decide on their own about this theory.
"Let’s begin by revisiting a parable through which Yahshua described His kingdom: "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind [literally: family], which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:47-50) It’s disturbing enough to find that "bad fish" are swimming with the "good" ones, though we saw this very thing in the parables of the mustard seed and the wheat and tares. These "bad fish" can even be found within the nominal church, as Yahshua made all too obvious in His seven letters in Revelation 2 and 3.
But there’s more here than meets the eye. A subtle differentiation between two types of "bad fish" in this passage is totally lost in the English, a distinction that is important to our understanding of mankind’s prospective eternal destinies. The fish that were characterized as "bad" are simply "thrown away." By contrast, "wicked" fish are "cast into the furnace of fire" where there will be "wailing and gnashing of teeth." We ordinarily assume these are the same souls, but they’re not. The word translated "bad" is the Greek sapros. It means rotten and decayed, putrefied, decomposed, thus unfit and worthless. A fish that is sapros is dead, and judging by the stench, has been for some time. "Wicked," on the other hand, is the Greek word poneros, meaning one causing pain, peril, and trouble, someone who is diseased, malignant, seriously faulty, evil, morally corrupt, vicious, even one who derives his wickedness from supernatural evil powers. Fish that are poneros are very much alive--and they’re dangerous. Thus there are not two but three kinds of fish: the good, the lifeless, and the evil. And there are three corresponding potential destinies: (1) eternal life with Yahweh (a very good thing), (2) death (a bad thing), and (3) everlasting punishment like that reserved for Satan and his demons (something infinitely worse than bad). "
Now, in this text, you have twisted the scripture to your point of view. The verse talks about fishermen getting rid of bad fish and keeping the good fish. That's TWO piles of fish, not three. The verse does NOT seperate the bad fish into two catagories. Again, in the further verse, the angels come and separate the wicked from the just--again, TWO "piles" not three. Again, the "wicked" are not divided into two separate catagories--it is talked about as one catagory. The scripture is using "bad" and "wicked" as the same thing in order to show the reader that there are TWO paths, one to the furnace of fire and one to heaven. ONLY by you trying to break up the story (thus destroying its intent of using an example that the people would understand [the fishermen] to describe a future event [the angels])--and add a third "pile" that is not written about--can you come up with the three door theology using this story.
"The word translated "bad" is the Greek sapros. It means rotten and decayed, putrefied, decomposed, thus unfit and worthless. A fish that is sapros is dead,..." An apple can be decaying or decomposing on an apple tree...still alive, but dying. You are ASSUMING that the fish are dead, they could just be sickly. If "unfit and worthless" is the Greek and not your interpretation, then a "worthless fish or unfit fish" simply could mean that it is too small, diseased, etc. and not fit to eat, thus not fit to keep. An "unfit" person is also a "wicked" person (because of sin) and will be cast into the fire. A "just" person is one who is "justified by faith" in Yashua.
You're trying too hard to make the scriptures "fit" your theory. Anyone can plainly realize what Yashua meant by the parable...if He was talking about a third pile (of fish) or option, He would have stated it plainly because He was teaching uneducated people. He wanted the uneducated people to understand what He was talking about, thus He utilized terminology they would understand in that day to reveal what would happen in the future. If there were a third option, He would have said that the fishermen put the bad fish in one pile, the wicked fish (?? lol) in another pile, and the good fish in yet a third pile. The bad fish were thrown away, the wicked fish were burned in the fire, and the good fish were kept. See? "Bad" fish and "Wicked" fish were meant to be the same thing.
More of MY opinion to come as I continue to read FH Chapter 29...
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Rank: Member
Joined: 8/8/2007
Posts: 23
Points: -49
Location: Birmingham, AL
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THANK YOU shalom82 for that link! I will have to book mark it.
I am in agreement with you guys on how man has messed up and added many things to the various denominations. I, for one, am more concerned about my faith in Yashua as the Savior--that is what matters because that is what saves one's soul. I have been to many churches of various denominations (currently going to a southern baptist church that acts more like a Church of God/Assemblies of God), but I consider myself to be non-denominational. I just didn't like the term "christian" in quotes because if made me feel that if one doesn't agree with everything said here on the forum, one is a "christian" in quotes only and not in the real sense of one being saved. Just looks judgemental and only God knows the heart and who is saved.
On Romans 6:23, my point was that sin leads to death. I wanted to know if "death" here meant what kp describes as just disappearing. Here I believe that it means both the first and second death. Adam would have lived forever in the physical form, had he not disobeyed God, because he had access to the Tree of Life. However, when he sinned, he doomed himself to both the physical death and the second death (not God's intention at creation as the second death, i.e. hell, was made for the devil and his angels). Only by the blood of Yashua can we be saved from the second death.
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