Shalom Shalom brothers and sisters. I would like to hear what people have to say about a particular subject, namely Ecclesiastes seeming to be a little fishy. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like this book is not consistent with the whole of Scripture. It seems to be fundamentally contradictory in terms of its root message - that everything is vain. That simply does not make sense when looking at everything else in Scripture, especially the creation account ("Genesis" if you will) and others. I know that it says the main message is to adhere to Yah's commands, which is very very true, but the rest of it just doesn't seem to align. Also, Yah's "hallmark" seems to be prophecy (and the fulfillment of prophecy) but Ecclesiastes seems to be lacking this.

Godfrey

Ecclesiastes is about how the entire world and its systems are BS, and the only real thing that matters in this existence is keeping the commandments and living right.

Is it Torah? No. Is the entire Scroll sound advice and reflections on life from one of the wisest men to ever walk the earth? YES!

Solomon is asking this simple question: what's a tasty meal if it gives you nothing?

What's the point of being a rich or poor person if one is still going to return to dust? What's the point of existence? Why did God create a finite universe, a universe with a beginning and an end, where people are born from nothing and return to nothing? Is this universe about the Now, or is it about Eternity and what God had in mind?

Matthew 6:19-34 comes to mind.

There is no doubt Ecclesiastes is a very philosophical book.

Just to note: fragments of Ecclesiastes was found at Qumran and is a part of the DSS.

I hear what you are saying Matthew. But I do believe that Walt is capturing what I am getting at. There could be a very wise dude on the earth right now but do I really need to pay much attention to what he is saying, when there is already so much I need to know about what Yah is saying. I am in no way making a debate or anything, but it is a more personal thing with me. I know a brother who knows Yah as Yah and has come out of religion but it seems that Ecclesiastes has added to his depression. It reflects in his music stating that everything is vain - even life itself. I simply do not believe that everything is vain - it just doesn't add up with what Yah has shared with us. If it was vain, why would He be involved in our affairs at all? He cares because everything is most certainly not vain. It is the very opposite of vanity.

He gave us taste buds for a reason - to enjoy the food that sustains us and gives us life. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Speaking of these related passages. I can easily understand why someone would get depressed. I can easily also see how someone can easily get depressed from reading the Torah, for example seeing it as burden to literally carry out. It's all about perspective.

But Solomon is right on this one, one does not earn any brownie points with God if one does not live for Yahweh, therefore everything that person does is worthless. Why hike beautiful mountains, and swim in their rivers, when one day that unsaved individual will die and return to dust, having no memory of ever having hiked those mountains?

Also, my one issue with discounting Ecclesiastes is that one will have to follow suit and discredit all of Solomon's writings (Ecclesiastes, Proverbs and Song of Solomon) on the basis that he wrote them all.

I really liked Proverbs/Misal/Word-Pictures most recently when Chapters 1-8 with "she" utterly confirms the Ruach haKodesh as our spiritual mother (maternal attributes) especially culmanating in 8:22-31 (ref Gen: 1:2).

On the beating correction into children, KJV seems a way poor translation. I wonder if "your rod & staff comfort me" was from Yah beating Dowd ;^) <joke> . I think "beating with a rod, he shall not die" is more likely raise them with Yah's teaching guidence & direction so they will not be dead spiritually.

I still have yet to get my wings translating with LOGOs so will attempt using Esword:

KJV+ search:
Pro 23:13 WithholdH4513 notH408 correctionH4148 from the child:H4480 H5288 forH3588 if thou beatestH5221 him with the rod,H7626 he shall notH3808 die.H4191
Pro 23:14 ThouH859 shalt beatH5221 him with the rod,H7626 and shalt deliverH5337 his soulH5315 from hell.H4480 H7585

BDB:
H7626
שׁבט
shêbeṭ
BDB Definition:
1) rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe
1a) rod, staff
1b) shaft (of spear, dart)
1c) club (of shepherd’s implement)
1d) truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority)
1e) clan, tribe
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from an unused root probably meaning to branch off
Same Word by TWOT Number: 2314a

STRONGS:
H7626
שׁבט
shêbeṭ
shay'-bet
From an unused root probably meaning to branch off; a scion, that is, (literally) a stick (for punishing, writing, fighting, ruling, walking, etc.) or (figuratively) a clan: - X correction, dart, rod, sceptre, staff, tribe.

H7626
שׁבט
shêbeṭ
Total KJV Occurrences: 190
tribes, 84
Gen_49:16, Gen_49:28, Exo_24:4, Exo_28:21, Exo_39:14, Num_36:2-3 (2), Deu_1:13, Deu_1:15 (2), Deu_5:23, Deu_12:5, Deu_12:14, Deu_16:18, Deu_18:5, Deu_29:10, Deu_29:21, Deu_31:28, Deu_33:5, Jos_3:12, Jos_4:5, Jos_4:8, Jos_7:14, Jos_7:16, Jos_11:23, Jos_13:7 (2), Jos_18:2, Jos_21:16, Jos_23:4, Jdg_20:1-2 (3), Jdg_20:10, Jdg_20:12, Jdg_21:5, Jdg_21:8, Jdg_21:15, 1Sa_2:28, 1Sa_9:21, 1Sa_10:19-20 (2), 1Sa_15:17, 2Sa_5:1, 2Sa_7:7, 2Sa_15:2, 2Sa_15:10, 2Sa_19:9, 2Sa_20:14, 2Sa_24:2, 1Ki_8:16, 1Ki_11:31-32 (2), 1Ki_11:35, 1Ki_14:21, 1Ki_18:31, 2Ki_21:7, 1Ch_27:16, 1Ch_27:22, 1Ch_28:1, 1Ch_29:6, 2Ch_6:5, 2Ch_11:16, 2Ch_12:13, 2Ch_33:7, Psa_78:55, Psa_105:37, Psa_122:4 (2), Isa_19:13, Isa_49:6, Isa_63:17, Eze_37:19, Eze_45:8, Eze_47:13, Eze_47:21-22 (2), Eze_48:1, Eze_48:19, Eze_48:23, Eze_48:29, Eze_48:31, Hos_5:9, Zec_9:1
tribe, 57
Num_4:18, Num_18:2, Num_32:33, Deu_1:23, Deu_3:13, Deu_10:8, Deu_18:1, Deu_29:8, Deu_29:18, Jos_3:12 (2), Jos_4:2, Jos_4:4, Jos_4:12, Jos_7:14, Jos_7:16, Jos_13:6-7 (2), Jos_13:14, Jos_13:29, Jos_13:33, Jos_18:4, Jos_22:7 (2), Jos_22:9-11 (3), Jos_22:13, Jos_22:15, Jos_22:21, Jdg_18:1, Jdg_18:19, Jdg_18:30, Jdg_20:12, Jdg_21:3, Jdg_21:6, Jdg_21:17, Jdg_21:24, 1Sa_9:21, 1Sa_10:20-21 (2), 1Ki_11:13, 1Ki_11:32, 1Ki_11:36, 1Ki_12:20-21 (2), 2Ki_17:18, 1Ch_5:18, 1Ch_5:23, 1Ch_5:26, 1Ch_12:37, 1Ch_23:14, 1Ch_26:32, 1Ch_27:20, Psa_78:67-68 (2), Eze_47:23
rod, 34
Exo_21:20, Lev_27:32, 2Sa_7:14, Job_9:34, Psa_2:9 (2), Psa_23:4, Psa_74:2, Psa_89:32, Psa_125:3, Pro_10:13, Pro_13:24, Pro_22:8, Pro_22:15, Pro_23:13-14 (2), Pro_26:3, Pro_29:15, Isa_10:4-5 (2), Isa_10:15, Isa_10:24, Isa_11:4, Isa_14:29, Isa_28:27, Isa_30:31, Jer_10:16, Jer_51:19, Lam_3:1, Eze_20:37, Eze_21:10, Eze_21:13, Mic_5:1, Mic_7:14
sceptre, 9
Gen_49:10, Num_24:17, Psa_45:6 (2), Isa_14:5, Eze_19:14, Amo_1:5, Amo_1:8, Zec_10:11
staff, 2
2Sa_23:21, 1Ch_11:23
correction, 1
Job_37:13
darts, 1
2Sa_18:14
pen, 1
Jdg_5:14 (2)
sceptres, 1
Eze_19:11

H5221
נכה
nâkâh
BDB Definition:
1) to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill
1a) (Niphal) to be stricken or smitten
1b) (Pual) to be stricken or smitten
1c) (Hiphil)
1c1) to smite, strike, beat, scourge, clap, applaud, give a thrust
1c2) to smite, kill, slay (man or beast)
1c3) to smite, attack, attack and destroy, conquer, subjugate, ravage
1c4) to smite, chastise, send judgment upon, punish, destroy
1d) (Hophal) to be smitten
1d1) to receive a blow
1d2) to be wounded
1d3) to be beaten
1d4) to be (fatally) smitten, be killed, be slain
1d5) to be attacked and captured
1d6) to be smitten (with disease)
1d7) to be blighted (of plants)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root

STRONGS:
H5221
נכה
nâkâh
naw-kaw'
A primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literally or figuratively): - beat, cast forth, clap, give [wounds], X go forward, X indeed, kill, make [slaughter], murderer, punish, slaughter, slay (-er, -ing), smite (-r, -ing), strike, be stricken, (give) stripes, X surely, wound.

H5221
נכה
nâkâh
Total KJV Occurrences: 497
smote, 193
Gen_14:5, Gen_14:7, Gen_14:15, Gen_19:11, Gen_36:35, Exo_7:20, Exo_8:17, Exo_9:25 (2), Exo_12:29, Exo_21:19, Num_3:13, Num_8:17, Num_11:33, Num_14:45, Num_20:11, Num_21:24, Num_21:35, Num_22:23, Num_22:25, Num_22:27, Num_32:4, Num_35:21, Deu_2:33, Deu_3:3, Deu_4:46, Deu_29:7, Jos_7:5 (2), Jos_8:22, Jos_8:24, Jos_9:18, Jos_10:10, Jos_10:26, Jos_10:28, Jos_10:30, Jos_10:32-33 (2), Jos_10:35, Jos_10:37, Jos_10:39-41 (3), Jos_11:8 (2), Jos_11:10-12 (3), Jos_11:14, Jos_11:17, Jos_12:1, Jos_12:7, Jos_13:21, Jos_19:47, Jos_20:5, Jdg_1:25, Jdg_7:13 (2), Jdg_8:11, Jdg_9:43, Jdg_11:21, Jdg_11:33, Jdg_12:4, Jdg_15:8, Jdg_18:27, Jdg_20:37, Jdg_20:48, 1Sa_4:8, 1Sa_5:6, 1Sa_5:9, 1Sa_6:19, 1Sa_7:11, 1Sa_13:3, 1Sa_14:31, 1Sa_14:48, 1Sa_15:7, 1Sa_17:35 (2), 1Sa_17:49-50 (2), 1Sa_19:10, 1Sa_22:19, 1Sa_24:5 (2), 1Sa_27:9, 1Sa_30:17, 2Sa_1:15, 2Sa_2:23, 2Sa_3:27, 2Sa_4:6-7 (2), 2Sa_5:20, 2Sa_5:25, 2Sa_6:7, 2Sa_8:1-3 (3), 2Sa_10:18, 2Sa_11:21, 2Sa_14:6-7 (2), 2Sa_18:15, 2Sa_20:10, 2Sa_21:17, 2Sa_24:10 (2), 2Sa_24:17, 1Ki_15:20, 1Ki_15:27, 1Ki_15:29, 1Ki_16:10, 1Ki_20:21, 1Ki_20:37, 1Ki_22:24, 1Ki_22:34, 2Ki_2:8, 2Ki_2:14, 2Ki_3:24-25 (2), 2Ki_6:18, 2Ki_8:21, 2Ki_10:24-25 (2), 2Ki_10:32, 2Ki_12:21, 2Ki_13:18, 2Ki_15:5, 2Ki_15:10, 2Ki_15:14, 2Ki_15:16 (2), 2Ki_15:25, 2Ki_15:30, 2Ki_18:8, 2Ki_19:35, 2Ki_19:37, 2Ki_25:21, 2Ki_25:25, 1Ch_1:46, 1Ch_4:41, 1Ch_4:43, 1Ch_14:10-11 (2), 1Ch_14:16, 1Ch_18:1-3 (3), 1Ch_20:1, 1Ch_21:7, 2Ch_14:14-15 (2), 2Ch_16:4, 2Ch_18:23, 2Ch_18:33, 2Ch_21:9, 2Ch_22:5, 2Ch_25:11, 2Ch_25:13, 2Ch_28:5 (2), 2Ch_28:23, Neh_13:25, Est_9:5, Job_2:7, Psa_60:1, Psa_78:20, Psa_78:51, Psa_78:66, Psa_105:33, Psa_105:36, Psa_135:8, Psa_136:10 (2), Psa_136:17, Son_5:7, Isa_10:20, Isa_14:6, Isa_14:29, Isa_27:7, Isa_30:31, Isa_37:36, Isa_37:38, Isa_57:17, Isa_60:10, Jer_20:2, Jer_37:15, Jer_46:2 (2), Jer_47:1, Jer_52:27, Jon_4:7 (2), Hag_2:17
smite, 94
Gen_8:21, Gen_32:8, Gen_32:11, Exo_3:20, Exo_7:17, Exo_8:16, Exo_9:15, Exo_12:12-13 (2), Exo_17:6, Exo_21:18, Exo_21:20, Exo_21:26, Num_14:12, Num_22:6, Num_25:17, Num_35:16-18 (3), Num_35:21, Deu_7:2, Deu_13:15, Deu_19:11, Deu_20:13, Deu_28:22, Deu_28:27-28 (2), Deu_28:35, Jos_12:6, Jos_13:12, Jdg_6:16, Jdg_20:31, Jdg_20:39, Jdg_21:10, 1Sa_15:3, 1Sa_17:46, 1Sa_18:11, 1Sa_19:10, 1Sa_20:33, 1Sa_23:2 (2), 1Sa_26:8, 2Sa_2:22, 2Sa_5:24, 2Sa_13:28, 2Sa_15:14, 2Sa_17:2, 2Sa_18:11, 1Ki_14:15, 1Ki_20:35 (2), 1Ki_20:37, 2Ki_3:19, 2Ki_6:18, 2Ki_6:21-22 (4), 2Ki_9:7, 2Ki_9:27, 2Ki_13:17-19 (3), 1Ch_14:15, Psa_121:6, Pro_19:25, Isa_10:24, Isa_11:4, Isa_11:15, Isa_49:10, Isa_58:4, Jer_18:18, Jer_21:6-7 (2), Jer_43:11, Jer_46:13, Jer_49:28, Eze_5:2, Eze_6:11, Eze_9:5, Eze_21:14, Eze_21:17, Eze_32:15, Eze_39:3, Amo_3:15, Amo_6:11, Mic_5:1 (2), Zec_9:4, Zec_10:11, Zec_12:4 (2), Zec_13:7, Mal_4:6
slew, 57
Exo_2:12, Jos_8:21, Jos_10:10, Jdg_1:4-5 (2), Jdg_1:10, Jdg_1:17, Jdg_3:29, Jdg_3:31, Jdg_9:44, Jdg_14:19, Jdg_15:15, Jdg_20:45, 1Sa_4:2, 1Sa_11:11, 1Sa_17:36, 1Sa_18:27, 1Sa_19:5, 1Sa_19:8, 1Sa_29:5, 1Sa_31:2, 2Sa_8:5, 2Sa_21:18-19 (2), 2Sa_21:21, 2Sa_23:12, 2Sa_23:20-21 (3), 1Ki_16:11, 1Ki_20:20-21 (2), 1Ki_20:29, 1Ki_20:36, 2Ki_10:9, 2Ki_10:11, 2Ki_10:17, 2Ki_12:20, 2Ki_14:5, 2Ki_14:7, 2Ki_21:24, 1Ch_10:2, 1Ch_11:14, 1Ch_11:22-23 (3), 1Ch_18:5, 1Ch_18:12, 1Ch_20:4-5 (2), 1Ch_20:7, 2Ch_13:17, 2Ch_33:25, Isa_66:3, Jer_26:23, Jer_41:3, Eze_9:7
smitten, 43
Exo_7:25, Exo_9:31-32 (2), Exo_22:2, Num_22:28, Num_22:32, Num_33:4, Jdg_1:8, 1Sa_5:12, 1Sa_6:19, 1Sa_13:4, 1Sa_30:1, 2Sa_2:31, 2Sa_8:9-10 (2), 2Sa_11:15, 1Ki_11:15, 2Ki_2:14, 2Ki_3:23, 2Ki_13:19 (2), 2Ki_14:10, 1Ch_18:9-10 (2), 2Ch_25:16, 2Ch_25:19, 2Ch_28:17, Job_16:10, Psa_3:7, Psa_69:26, Psa_102:4, Isa_5:25, Isa_27:7, Isa_53:4, Jer_2:30, Jer_14:19, Jer_37:10, Eze_22:13, Eze_33:21, Hos_6:1 (2), Hos_9:16, Amo_4:9
slain, 20
Num_25:14-15 (3), Num_25:18, Deu_1:4, Jdg_15:16, 1Sa_18:7, 1Sa_21:11, 2Sa_13:30, 2Sa_21:12, 2Sa_21:16, 1Ki_16:16, 2Ki_14:5, Job_1:15, Job_1:17, Jer_18:21, Jer_33:5, Jer_41:9, Jer_41:16, Jer_41:18
killeth, 13
Lev_24:17-18 (2), Lev_24:21 (2), Num_35:11, Num_35:15, Num_35:30, Deu_19:4, Jos_20:3, Jos_20:9, 1Sa_17:25-27 (3)
slay, 12
Gen_34:30, Deu_19:6, Deu_27:25, 2Sa_21:2, 1Ki_20:36, 2Ki_10:25, Jer_5:6, Jer_20:4, Jer_29:21, Jer_40:14-15 (3)
smiteth, 11
Exo_21:12, Exo_21:15, Deu_25:11, Deu_27:24, Jos_15:16, Jdg_1:12, 2Sa_5:8, 1Ch_11:6, Isa_9:13, Lam_3:30, Eze_7:9
slaughter, 5
Gen_14:17, 1Sa_17:57, 1Sa_18:6, 2Sa_1:1, 2Ch_25:14
smiting, 5
Exo_2:11, 2Sa_8:13, 1Ki_20:37, 2Ki_3:24, Mic_6:13
beat, 4
Deu_25:3, 2Ki_13:25, Pro_23:14, Jon_4:8
beaten, 4
Exo_5:14, Exo_5:16, Deu_25:2 (2)
kill, 4
Gen_4:15, Gen_37:21, 1Sa_17:9 (2)
given, 3
2Ki_8:29, 2Ki_9:15, 2Ch_22:6
killed, 3
2Sa_12:9, 1Ki_16:7, 2Ch_25:3
stricken, 3
Pro_23:35, Isa_1:5, Jer_5:3
wounded, 3
2Ki_8:28, Jer_30:14, Zec_13:6
slaying, 2
Jos_10:20, Eze_9:8
stripes, 2
Deu_25:3, Pro_17:10
beatest, 1
Pro_23:13
cast, 1
Hos_14:5
clapped, 1
2Ki_11:12
forth, 1
Hos_14:5
hard, 1
1Ch_10:2
made, 1
1Sa_14:14
murderers, 1
2Ki_14:6
punish, 1
Lev_26:24
slayer, 1
Num_35:24 (2)
slewest, 1
1Sa_21:9
smiters, 1
Isa_50:6
smitest, 1
Exo_2:13
smotest, 1
Exo_17:5
strike, 1
Pro_17:26
struck, 1
1Sa_2:14
went, 1
2Ki_3:24

Not conclusive, perhaps someone better and quick with LOGOs could translate these 2 verses?