Certainly the Top Ten are a given. But 613 commandments seems to be the accepted Torah total. How many really apply to us? and how many are repeats?

It says in 16 different ways "don't commit incest." Just among us, I think we've got that one handled. Speak up if I'm wrong. :)
At least five deal with leaven at passover.
Understand what is an idol, and don't go there! would cover about 50.
Priestly practices, temple stuff and sacrifices take up several dozen.

When Yehushua was asked what was most inportant, he paraphrased and by doing so included about half the list.

I'm not asking what rules don't matter, but there are certainly rules encompassed within other rules, rules that don't impact our lives, and rules that are a bit too difficult to keep, such as "To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city." (My displeasure with that one is probably why my whole country is going to burn.(What stays in Vegas, poisons us all))

Anyhow, I digress... I got the list here... http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

I'm going to try and hash out a 'functional' list for myself, and I think any discussion on the subject is a good thing. Ideas?

Hi Matthew,


Yes I understand this. Yet I am rather at a turning point in my walk. The decision to turn away from the faith only ideal(not) is rather strange. One of the items that has always been held up to the masses is the "law is a curse" lie. I've only today actually examined it and looked at what the commandments consist of. It isn't as daunting as one might have been led to believe. Don't get me wrong! I'm not saying it's cake, but it is certainly not 613 dos and don'ts that apply to my every day. The list I need to remain aware of is much shorter.


Challenge accepted.


I'll look at it. I've been slowly working through the books links at YY, and as reality would have it The Owners Manual is at the bottom of the list.

Thanks for your reply!

EDIT: Not familiar with Maimonides. Just looked him up on Wikipedia. I don't know why or why not he needs to be dismantled, but as I said, I'll check it out.

I don't really understand what Uzi's value is to this community is....seeing that he is advocating goyim to become Noachides...thus saying they are "right" with YHWH if they fulfill the 7 noachide laws. It would seem to me that the flaw is rather self evident. If you are a Noachide and basically have to only make sure you wipe the seat if you sprinkle when you tinke....and there is a Jew who jumps through all the hoops and does his utmost to understand and abide by the thousands upon thousands of laws and interpretations of laws that are put on him...then do you get the ranch floor plan in the suburbs of new Jerusalem while he gets a mansion that is virtually next door to YAH? And think about how wonderful Yah would be if that is actually what He advocated. "Oh, Father....how must I know you and serve you?" YHWH: "oh...yeah....there's 7 laws...there really easy...just look into them....and do them and you'll be OK in my book"...."Oh, YHWH....I really didn't discover much about you in learning and doing the 7 laws and I want to know you more and have a relationship with you and take on more responsibility and serve you all the more." YHWH: "Errr....well...I guess....um...you could convert to Judaism." "Do you recommend that, Father?" YHWH: "Errr....not really...I mean...I'm ok with what we have...it's pretty hard and all. to tell you the truth I am not really into having a really committed relationship right now." Does this really match up with the all consuming jealous exacting love that we have all come to lvoe and expect from Abba? Not in my book. Furthermore he says that this is a possible stepping stone to orthodox judaism. From your position as a noachide you can decide if you want to take on all of the "halakha". I am not trying to come down on any of my brothers or sisters here on this forum....but this racializing nonsense doesn't do a bit of good. Oh..am I a "true" Yisraeli....do I have the blood of Abraham or am I from Ham or Yapheth....oh what to do what do do...and people agonize and then get swayed by garbage religious doctrines like "true israel" or noachidism. Personally from what I see in the Tanakh....YHWH doesn't give a lick about race or color or origins. "MY father was a wandering Aramean......" It is not about where you come from....it is about where you are willing to go...and it is not a partial thing....it is the covenant and nothing less....and over and over again....you accept the covenant and it is just as if you are native born. People make a lot about.....Caleb the Kennezite or Ruth the Moabitess or Zelek the Ammonite or UrriYah the hittite....and we wonder why are they still classified by where there origins are.....and I have wondered that same thing.....We have heard so many lies and been told how to behave by christians and jews and messianics and noachides that we don't know what to do with ourselves and how are we to behave and what are our "obligations" as "believers"....and we are insecure and wondering if we really are the second class citizens that they make us out to be. And I have realized just recently....The people like Caleb and Ruth and UrriYah and ObadYahu are not distinguished by their national origins to divide and make tiers of citizens. These people were participating in the covenant....and THAT is why they were named. To make explicitly clear the inclusiveness of YHWH. Look at some of these people people from Moab and Ammon and Edom (ObadYahu) hated enemies of Yisrael "raze it...raze it to it's very foundation!!!"
It is enough....to say simply "Your people my people your God my God" ('amekh 'ami we'lohaikh '
elohai" as Ruth said....a woman even from the worshippers of baal peor I thought we had this pretty well sorted out. YHWH is not into this racializing. He puts us in places for a reason. It doesn't matter if we come out of Ur or USA. Sometimes the closer we are to YHWH....the farther we are from Him. What are the chances that members of Neturei Karta or the more chauvanistic sects of the Haredim will shed religion and embrace YHWH? We all have our own journies out of the fever swams of politics and religion...and all of the inherent pitfalls like chauvanism and racializing. And I think that that is something that is very important to YHWH. I don't know about you but I see all this evidence that YHWH is saying that He really doesn't need this garbage....so IF you are coming out... don't bring it with you. If it is important to you....then stay in the world. I don't know about you but if I wanted racializing religions I would embrace islam or mormonism....or for that matter judaism. I am not a Noachide.....I am a Yahudi....I belong to Yah.....I am a man of the covenant. Yes there is a reason for blood....but the heart matters much more. I think Ezekiel explains that pretty well.

eh steve I am about 50 miles SE of Pittsburgh. More South than East...at least I think....haha

Another thing comes to mind about race in the Tanakh.

It has to do with YHWH's response to Miriam (specifically) when Aharon and Miriam berate Moshe for the fact that he had a Cushite wife. There is the interpretation that that in fact Moshe had another wife other than Zipporah....but I think the evidence is lacking. If somebody has a different perspective or more evidence by all means share. But I at this time conclude that they were speaking of Zipporah and calling her a cushite as a sort of semi racial expletive. Because Zipporah was not a cushite...she was a Midianitess....and what happens.

YHWH turns Miriam leperous white....now I could be wrong....but to me this all adds up....Miriam is slagging off both Moshe and Zipporah because of her origin and her dark appearance....and boom....YHWH turns Miriam leperous white....as if to say "You like being "white" so much and think it makes you superior....then try this on for size"

To me this is once again pointing to the fact that YHWH esteem those who esteem him and that is the only requirement.

I don't know I could be wrong....but if YHWH wanted a monochromatic world...He could have done so....for that matter Yahudim are not exactly pure....If I can go to Israel and see Red haired ashkenazim and then go and see Cochin indian Yahudim and even kaifeng Chinese Jews and black African lembas and hispanic sephardim.....then I think we can conclude that YHWH isn't really into "purity"

well here is the thing encounterhim. Uzi has been around forever. This is not the first time I have encountered him and I have actually debated him before. He has been pushing the noachide/orthodox halacha route for a long time. As you say he is wise in his own mind. And it is not just a matter for me of thinking he is wrong or not quite there in his thinking. It is not like he is advocating something that is inconsequential. Noachidism is horrible. I have already written why I come to that conclusion. It separates the participant from YHWH. And to represent Noachidism as anything other than what it is (a system of belief that does not allow the participant to covenant with YHWH) is an expression of hatred and emnity toward humanity (whether you are ignorant or not). At best Noachidism pushes complacency. It is an enabler that suggests that virtual igrnorance is a good substitute for relationship....even worse however is the fact that Noachides are not allowed to read the entire Torah and Noachides are not permitted to observe Torah precepts fundamental to covenant participation. I don't know what else to say. So....no....I am not really a fan of Uzi.

I had never considered that possibility, shalom82. It might certainly provoke one to more carefully consider any racially polarized views to which they may be clinging. Thank you for sharing that observation.

As for the Uzi character, why waste your time even remarking about someone once they have shown themselves to be stubborn, stiff-necked, and wise in their own eyes? Turn away, walk away, and leave him outside the camp where he belongs.

Richard